Episode 12 – Better Systems

Kristen: Hi welcome back to upright and better the podcast where we talk about growing businesses up and to the right and up and better on this show. It’s not just about scaling for scaling’s sake it’s about making organizations that deliver value to everyone involved. I’m your host, Kristen Gallagher.

Kristen: I’m very excited to talk with our guest today. But before we dive in I want to tell you about something that I’m working on called human scale human school is the conference for people operations people and it is February 27 and 28 here at Portland Oregon’s own Mark Spencer hotel and it’s just a little conference for about 100 people. We’re going to be talking about people it’s how to have a more human human resources operation. And it’s really about the knowledge the context in the community that you need to really be a people we’re in the people operations and human resources arena. So if you’re the type of person who is the people operations person either unofficially or otherwise at your company you really need human school. If you’re feeling like you’re behind the curve or you don’t really know what you don’t know about people operations human school is definitely for you. So we’ll be taking a practical approach to learning human resources so everything from all of the employee lifecycle from start to finish. And that’s not something that you’re going to see at most H.R. conferences so this is very hands on. It’s a one track conference you’ll leave with an actual people operation strategy that you can use in your own business. The very next day and we’re going to be talking both philosophy and tactics so you’ll know that you’ll walk away with something really really useful.

Kristen: So earlybird tickets have closed now but tickets are still open and pretty affordable so if you go to w w w dot human dot school you can find out all the details are amazing speakers and what workshops we have in store for you. And that’s again it’s human school and we look forward to seeing you there in February. Now let’s get into the episode. So my guest today is Kuranda Adair and she helps entrepreneurs who are ready to stop spinning their marketing wheels and get serious about creating an online marketing engine for their businesses. She’s the founder of KARVEL digital. She’s a proud Portland native and she’s a recovering WordPress developer. Crondall became a programmer at 34 and has spent the last few years really learning what makes Web sites profitable and rescuing business owners from ill informed technology decisions. But most recently she’s been kind of a fanatic about systems in her business as you’ll see from her conversation. So she hopes to craft online marketing experiences that capture clients attention. Introduce them to the brand and turns them into customers. And that’s something that businesses that are growing need. Obviously we need to talk about profit not just systems on this business. So if you don’t find her busy building these amazing systems and these funnels you’ll probably find her on one of her five bicycles reading a book or trapped under a can. So if you’ll help me welcome Corunna.

I’m so excited to have Kronda Adair from KARVEL digital has today tried to tell us how you are today.

Kronda: [00:03:30] I am having an interesting day filled with interesting challenges.

Kristen: [00:03:35] It sounds that sounds like the life of a business owner.

Kr: [00:03:38] Yes I will start ranting if I get into it.

Kristen: [00:03:45] Well I sure will get into a little bit of it because you and I have talked to you cause you are pretty much making sure that I don’t screw anything up royally with Human.School’s website teaching me pretty much everything I ever needed to know about WordPress along the way. And part of what you’re doing though the work we’re doing is letting me see a shift in your business and so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you have been doing and what you’re doing now and why you shift it in.

Kronda: [00:04:19] Sure. So I started out almost five years ago as a WordPress developer. Freelance work Press development. I would basically make a website for anybody who wanted work and had some money.

Kronda: [00:04:33] And as the years went on I started learning more about marketing and what makes Web sites actually profitable and useful to businesses and so that sent me on a quest to try to find clients who really needed those things who work. You know because it’s it’s always more gratifying and more exciting to work with someone and feel like you actually made a positive impact on our business. Not that that you know giving people new Web sites doesn’t do that but that’s just the starting line at this point in time. You know it used to be like getting a web site. You slap it up there and you were dead.

Kronda: [00:05:11] You existed on the Internet and that is so the case and are so much more required if you want your website to actual work as a marketing and sales tool 3 which is there all the time so you might as well make it work as well as it can. And so yeah I’ve been making a sort of public shift via my weekly e-mail newsletter over this year from being a development company and more a digital marketing company and becoming really more of an agency. And so that’s necessitated. You know losing some clients who really weren’t interested in that or couldn’t afford that which seemed kind of backwards to say I’m not interested in marketing but I can’t afford you like those things seem related to me but I think they are. But you know everybody is in a different place with their business and what they want to focus on. So I’ve just been really really more intentional about who I work with and trying to get a good match because when it’s not them it’s just it’s frustrating on all sides. People aren’t getting what they want and you’re not getting to know actually do things that will move the needle for them. So it’s been it’s been a year of sort of holding pattern while I have this business identity crisis and try to figure out really what are the few things that I want to focus on doing well. And so I’ve settled part you know marketing and marketing funnels meaning not just the Web site but how now the content for the Web site and landing pages and email marketing. I really like e-mail marketing as a tool.

Kronda: [00:06:52] And a lot of people sort of have negative connotations or skeevy associations with it. And I really enjoy it because it’s really just communication.

Kristen: [00:06:59] I really appreciate how holistic your view is business. It reminds me of some feelings that I had in profit sector where I felt like we were not just now in some cases was not actually supported by the work that we were doing on the role of the work doing was supporting the mission you all of these little pieces that weren’t actually talking to each other and we needed kind of a bigger picture of how we are going to all move forward in this direction together. And I think that that’s what you do from the outside. You know it you think that’s what you’re doing with your business. You’re not going to be able to have a successful business for such if you can’t tell people about it and if you can explain it to you. Wow.

Kronda: [00:07:56] Exactly. And I’m a writer by inclination and experience. So that’s you know I’m basically trying to shift it so that my my role in the company is more about you know creating my own marketing content and really the community the communication aspects of marketing which is which is the most important piece. And so getting away from you know having conversations with clients about Logos and colors and you know things that are are important but not necessarily the most important to them. Earlier today I was thinking I was thinking about what this week’s newsletter because I haven’t written that yet. I was thinking what would happen to your what like what would people’s Web sites look like if they just stripped everything away except the words.

Kristen: [00:08:49] I think I’m kind of terrified right.

Kronda: [00:08:52] But that’s really I mean the great. Yeah. So I don’t know I think it’s a good exercise and a good thing to think about and I just rebuilt my web site because it was you know vastly outdated and not not really putting forth a message based on what I want to be doing in the future and so I recently relaunched it but I’m probably going to you know go and play around with some different things and maybe scale it back even more. We like OK what is you know what’s the least amount of fluff I can have here. And so communicate exactly what I want to achieve.

Kristen: [00:09:31] I think it’s a very interesting exercise. You know what if you take away the crutches that you’re meaning. I hope this isn’t too too much of a leap but I think that as we grow companies and organizations we lean on crutches is something you and I have been talking about a lot lately just fine. The systems are busy. You know you have been in business much. You have reached a scale already where you know you’re not the only person. In order to do the work that you want to do you have to put in place just makes sense. I wonder if you can you know talk a little bit about when you realize that in order to grow a sustainable business you have to think in systems and what you’ve done.

Kronda: [00:10:22] Well I think I realize that probably over three years ago I mean I’ve I read a book called Traction. Get a grip on your business by Gino Wickman. And that’s an awesome book and I actually have a blog post called wire freelancer’s so flaky. And it talks about it talks about us and I compare it to. We recently had a fence built -it’s an enormous fence we called the fortress of solitude. It’s a seven foot fence with six foot by seven foot gate. And we hired a very expensive fence company to build the first section of this. And they were totally on top of it. Like if they said we’re going to send you a quote. They said the quote if they said we’re going to be here you know at this time the sales rep showed up at that time and the day before they started the sales rep said something about their Wednesday meeting and the issues list which is a very us traction term and I said Oh. Has your boss read this book. He’s like oh yeah that’s how we operate our company. I said oh that’s why everything is so together.

Kristen: [00:11:35] Can you define EOS in case it’s unfamiliar.

Kronda: [00:11:40] Sure. It’s entrepreneurial operating system. And so we’re interested in that and the book and its iOS worldwide dot com is the Web site and so gives you a framework for running and scaling your business. And as soon as he said that I just instantly knew like that’s why you charge what you charge and that’s why your organization is so good. And you know if you if you’ve experienced hiring contractors for your house that gets it’s not that way usually And you know the person we hired to actually execute our landscaping plan like it’s definitely not that way. So it makes a huge difference. And so I realized that a long time ago as far as like when I started doing something about it that’s. In a serious way probably in the last like three to four months and months. Mostly a question of you know not having the resources and having been taken up with a lot of client work and things like that you know cobbler’s kids and all that kind of stuff. So the other book that I read that was sort of life changing is called warped the system by Sam carpenter. And you can actually download that for free at work the system dot com.

Kronda: [00:12:53] And I sort of had I keep telling people I had a religious conversion because now I just go around asking business owners like have you accepted documentation… Yeah exactly. That’s me. I’m like I’m this close to going like business to business and being like no seriously have you seen this like this is how you get freedom.

Kronda: [00:13:32] Because imagine imagine any any company with like you know 10 employees or even or 50 or 100. How you know most small business owners are. We’re doing everything ourselves. We’re running around like chickens with our heads cut off. We’re fighting fires all the time. Imagine multiplying that by 50 people who can’t do their jobs unless they’re checking with you all the time about what to do. You have to. You have to write things down. You have to systemize so that you can have people help you you know run your company. And it seems so obvious when you get it and yet you know 99 out of 100 small business owners either don’t get it or they get it but not enough to actually do something about it. And so I recently hired my first dedicated part time person and all he’s doing right now is taking the systems that already existed and putting them in one place. And then we’re sort of this bull terriers and say OK what are the things that need to be worked out first. What are the high priority things. And so even you know even the weekly newsletter that I did that was the first thing I had to create a system for and what I did was record myself doing the task just in a like screen flow video. And I sent that to him and to him right the process and then we went back and forth a little bit with we giving him feedback and critique and making changes until I felt like OK this is a good representation of how this thing is done.

Kronda: [00:15:07] And then after that I handed after him I said this is this is yours now you own it like I’m going to write the newsletter. You’re going to you know imported into the email marketing tool and spell check it and tested it and you know make make sure the links work and schedule it. That’s your thing. So that’s that’s an hour that I get back a week. And then it’s like compound interest. We’re just going to repeat that cycle until I get more and more of my time back think and do more of the higher value tasks.

Kristen: [00:15:38] I really appreciate what you said just a minute ago. He’s basically taking something that you know you you have been trained to he probably read too much time. Your time is fascinating. And I think you know I think your direct quote was my business major to get it or they don’t want to get it or they don’t get enough to actually do anything about it and it’s something that I see a lot in the works that I do with onboarding where you know a lot of the time the answer is well everyone will be fine just picking up in the water. Right. But I think businesses like yours mine and many other businesses. Truthfully under other people you can’t take it up and it has to come from some other human who tells you these things straight and you know be on the receiving end of that when there’s no system. No not really stressful experience. I mean I would I would argue that it’s a negative way to bring in a new part time work. I’m curious and that’s something that you guys used to use.

Kronda: [00:16:55] Yeah. So I mean one of the things that will be higher priority is you know since this is the first time I was hired someone had a little bit of onboarding mapped out. But you know the way the way to actually make this happen mechanically is that. Once you make the decision like yes I’m going to create this process and document how things are done. Then everything that you do if it is not already documented and you know it’s going to have to happen again then you should be documenting it as you do it. And so you know as I’m onboarding Dylan I’m writing down the things like OK he needs these passwords he needs access to these things he needs to review the company’s strategic objective like you know I’m dumping all of that into the into the software that they use to create systems and then he and I you know will meet and I’ll get his feedback on it. OK what was good about your onboarding process and what would you what do you wish you had had sooner or had access to or you know what resources would have been helpful and will improve that process so that the next person that I hire they’re going to have a better experience and then they’re going to improve the process. And you know as you bring people on you know you’re not necessarily treating all these procedures yourself. The people who do them should be the ones who are treating them because then you get by because the other half of the equation is that people who actually have to follow the processes or they’re no good.

Kristen: [00:18:26] Right exactly.

Kronda: [00:18:27] And I think that’s really what the interesting challenge is to write it rationally leveraging resource elsewhere in the business. Somebody who can actually do that again for you or me. It’s something I tell my clients. You know once you’ve built this process first time your technical team like Do you ever have your new hire being what you got every corner with you and bring bring in new people to the process and have them critique it and have them up to it. They’ve got fresh eyes right and so similar exactly the same. I think it’s in that space of systems.

Kronda: [00:19:08] Yeah absolutely.

Kristen: [00:19:10] So you happen as you talked about this and as I kind of watched your business change even in the last year I can’t help but think that you are trying to build you know quote better business. And I always like to ask people what they think better means the price. You know with a great inventor there’s a perspective that we have about how we’re building businesses. And so I’m curious what does better mean to you and for you. Are there personal implications or social implications in that.


[00:19:43] Good question. Better means a lot of things for me right now it means more profitable because that’s really been an issue for the past year and a half or so. Thanks to you know just the trials and tribulations and the hard knocks and you know wearing some expensive lesson was part of it. And also you know not having the right clients and not being able to charge you know what I needed to to really get them results. And so that’s that’s definitely part of it. And then better also means that that me and my team don’t spend time fighting fires. We spend time improving systems because as you said like once you once you actually have created a system the first time then you can just continually improve it.

Kronda: [00:20:38] And as long as everybody is following that that documentation then you’re always doing a task in the best possible way that you know how to do it. Because if you find a flaw in it you can improve it immediately. And so that compounding interest comes in when you get to the point where things start to run really smoothly. And I’m not spending my day fighting fire. I’m spending my day you know improving systems or you know thinking about strategy for my clients and how I can you know improve their systems. And you’re also leaving your clients better because the kinds of things I’m doing now like I try to document as much as possible if I do you know like we created an e-commerce store so we’re documenting for the clients internal team. Here’s how you create a new product. Here’s how you added new products. You know the things that they’re going to want to do where they don’t necessarily want to have to call us you know call the developer Every time to do these small tasks. And so if those are written down then you’re just creating you know quote unquote machines that that can run themselves while you do other things.

Kristen: [00:21:51] I really like the idea of creating you know basically templates can be pulled and reused and continually updates.

Kristen: [00:22:02] And I think you know as I think about the kinds of businesses that are looking to build something that is more than just for traffic it has some positive social implications some impact actually. I can’t help but think that existence building systems is actually no don’t reach those goals. Yeah because you know as a business owner if I’m spending all my time fighting fires then.

Kronda: [00:22:31] That’s you know a lot of people come to me and you know want me to mentor them right. They want to quote unquote pick my brain which I hate that phrase. You know but they want. They want to know like you know how did you get where you are. And I can’t I don’t have time for any of that because I’m completely focused on OK I have to get the business you know running well and profitable because I don’t you know what I think when people have jobs and they know like oh I’m getting this paycheck every two weeks. Sure you can give away your free time to people who are up and coming in the industry and that’s fine. But I can’t do that until I get this all figured out and I’m running well. So I really like helping people but I literally had to put a pay wall around my life and say nobody gets my free time because it’s not free.

Kronda: [00:23:20] That’s you know that’s my business is consulting and teaching people so until until that is sustainable I can’t give away my time even to people that I you know would normally want to help or not. A It’s not a place I enjoy being. I really like helping people.

Kristen: [00:23:38] That is so true. And I you know if you can match this you can invest time that I. You are one of the people that taught me about that taught me about value. And I started to see it in my own business where you know some of want you to review their resume or are you you know point them in the right direction and you probably said that they could do by looking at your door you know doing some research around. And it’s a good balance because you know on the one hand I keep thinking I want to be generous with my time because people were generous with me. But if I think back to the people that were generous to me and I don’t know if is true their business is worse successful. Right they has to deal with. And they have gotten to places too I think about when I get on the airplane my safety is put on your mask first.

Kronda: [00:24:37] Helping other people save those. All right.

Kronda: [00:24:41] I say that like weekly. Yeah. Put your own mask on first.

Kristen: [00:24:46] Right. So because I don’t think we’re going to be able to reach sustainable scalable business. But how do you and reaching a sustainable scaffold business means that we will have an extra you know maybe some money to do philanthropy or some time jaunt here. You know everybody is totally free to do what you want. For example I completely disagree with what you said.

Kronda: [00:25:11] Yeah and that’s been nice since I started also to focus on the edge as an educational piece of my business. Well I recently admitted that I have two businesses so the is the second one is more of an educational thing and and with that model I’m able to reach more people because I’m able to create things that scale and actually just this week I’ve been talking to Mercy Corps about teaching a class for them teaching or marketing online working class. And so you know that’s part of better business. Right. And you know because I’m still going to get paid for that. But it’s also helping you know brand new women in business in particular to hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls that I’ve seen with a lot of my past clients.

Kristen: [00:26:00] I look for just one thing and I want to also ask you to get into how you actually skew your business. What advice do you think people should know about your business. So we cannot try sustainability. There.

Kronda: [00:26:21] Yes. So I have a lot of mentors. And the thing about all the mentors they’ve had is that is that I’ve paid most of them. And that’s you know. So when people come to me and the like oh give me all your free time I’m like No no I learned all this because I paid people who made it their business to you know to try to help help people. So there’s a there’s a real commonality with all my mentors and it has to do with that system’s mindset. And and. Being able to envision and look at your business as something that’s separate from you because when you start out especially when you start out freelancing or doing kind of a service thing where you know certain you are the business if you’re going to scale an F scale to you means bringing in other people then you have to change your mindset and view the business as a separate entity. And so one of my mentors actually builds a course called How to how to build a business that runs without you. And he sort takes you through getting that mindset thinking about if you couldn’t do anything with you know you physically like can’t do anything to run your business then what are the roles that you need to fill and where you know where the responsibility is going to lie and so that’s a mindset that it generally takes awhile and if you if you’re listening to those and you’re about to start a business or you want to start a business and you can somehow get that mindset from the beginning. Wow.

Kronda: [00:27:53] How magical Would that be. So I think that’s that’s one of the big things and then the other thing about scaling is just thinking about. A business model that’s sustainable. So the reason I sort of now have two businesses that I really want is to create an educational product. I wanted to create an online course that you know I could promote to as many people as possible and that getting a new customer and then mean oh I have to work another 20 hours a week because that’s not scale more sustainable. So you know getting getting knowledge out of my head getting it into onto the Internet in some form and being able to share that with people was really important to me and so. So there’s that’s you know sort of two sides of that coin is one you can have a product that you know you can just sell as many as you want then it doesn’t require any extra work for you. Or you can set up. You know systems using other people or even if you’re solo you can still you can still set up systems that make you more efficient. And that’s a way and you can still one thing Sam Carpenter the work the systems author talks about all the time is automate delegate and delete. So if you think of every task that you do and ask yourself Can I automate this. Can I delegate this or do I even need to be doing it. You know you could buy back a lot of time that way by by running running your week through that filter.

Kristen: [00:29:22] I should probably be doing it.

Kronda: [00:29:25] Well I’m delegation as you know for control freak business owners like delegation it’s really hard to get good at. And that’s that’s one of the other things is you know I’m still in the first month of having this dedicated person. And so when when I’m reviewing some task and it’s not quite the way I wanted it like the instinct to do just be like OK I’ll fix it because it’s just doesn’t take me any time and. And you can’t do that because that’s not the way to scale. You have to go back and say OK here’s the feedback here’s why I need it to be this way. You know let’s fix the process if necessary. But you you have to give up that control and you have to start empowering other people.

Kristen: [00:30:10] That’s. I think there’s something hey it’s a little bit of backtracking. But you said something I want to do just a little bit that you do matters. And I have gotten to a place in my business this year where I could do the same and I just feel so much better about it when I’m asking people for help actually exchange value for their time providing you know that exchange. And I also think and wonder if having a better business involves you know paying people families for what they’re worth and what they bring.

Kronda: [00:30:51] Absolutely. Yeah I mean that’s that’s essential if you’re just sort of take take take that’s not. That’s not equitable and it’s not it’s not sustainable because. You know if you’re doing that then how is that person supporting themselves if they’re already have a successful business and they’re just want to volunteer. That’s one thing. But if you’re talking to someone who’s let’s say in the first you know five years in the business chances are either they’re still figuring it out and them and so yet having that sustainability and you know in my early part of my year was filled with people of telling me telling me how valuable I was without actually offering me any. And so I I kind of developed the trigger about it. Yeah. So yeah I’m just much more appreciative of people who do understand that the importance of that and what.

Kristen: [00:31:46] It’s essential. Yeah I think what you’re. It seems like what is underpinning is respect and mutual respect and that if you have shifted your mindset to a place then your interactions with people won’t be reminded of something I saw this week. You know I don’t know that story but long story short a UK tourist was all I was trying to haggle. It was not always coming downforce Eugenius you wanted to buy a policewoman was rightfully area said about it. You know I just kept thinking Why. Why couldn’t you just buy you know.

Kristen: [00:32:37] Yeah yeah.

Kristen: [00:32:38] She just come home. So it’s not like she couldn’t spend a couple more hours you know their fundamental problem with that situation is a lack of respect for that person.

Kronda: [00:32:51] Yes and I’ve had situations where you know clients who are paying other other companies or other people to do you know sort of parts you know manage parts of their business would come to me and say well we’re not quite sure that they’re they’re doing this thing correctly like can you. You know what do you know about it. Can you take a look at it but then not want to pay me flag. And I know it’s not that you don’t have the money and so you know I think I think part of that is just you know who I am right. So would you be doing this if I were a white straight dude. Probably not. So I think that’s definitely part of it. And. And then I think there’s some aspect of people just they don’t really think about what they’re doing and how how it looks and how it how it feels.

Kronda: [00:33:41] Yeah. There’s one of the reasons I’m doing just talking with you and learning from you is that I don’t know if you caught this. To me it’s almost like this mindfulness that you have about the way that you approach your business your approach social events people in it. It seems to me that you’re really trying to be mindful of how you are right and wrong. And I think probably causes you to be really aware of how other people are not mine.

Kronda: [00:34:14] Yeah I think that’s true and I I definitely feel that after my you know my quote unquote religious conversion like you know it’s really really tough sometimes to watch other people flounder and struggle and try to say well hey have you heard of this other way of doing things and you know they’re not ready they’re not ready.

Kronda: [00:34:36] And then on the flip side like hiring people like this landscaping thing that I’m in the middle of where you know we have this great experience with the fence company and now we’re having just the total opposite experience with you know the actual building of our landscape design where the attention to detail is lacking the communication is lacking. And we’re doing every you know we’re doing so much product managing ourselves and it’s like we are is not what we’re paying you for. So yeah it really heightens your awareness. You know like oh well there’s always an element of you know everybody is kind of winging it and nobody really has all the answers none of them do.

Kronda: [00:35:22] But but you should be getting like closer to knowing what you’re doing is at 80 percent.

Kronda: [00:35:30] So yeah it’s it’s interesting when you have a shift like that and then to watch the rest of the world and through that new lens.

Kristen: [00:35:38] Yeah. You know this is the first year. I always try to apply it sort of almost never just because I get other businesses too aren’t there people which doesn’t include you know what systems you use and how you tell people how you do it you do whatever and so I had to start but it is just for him she is hired people and bringing contractors. And once you start it it is kind of like a religious conversion once you get back.

Kristen: [00:36:16] It’s almost like this lens. It seems so obvious. Well this is obviously the way to grow the business in a way that makes you pull my hair.

Kronda: [00:36:30] Exactly.

Kronda: [00:36:32] Yeah. I mean but one thing I will say about that is when you’re at the beginning of that process it does require a leap of faith because you know it. It reminds me of. There’s that book that the life changing magic of tidying up and opinions. Well OK so good but but the essence of any process like that is that before it can be better first you have to like to get all your stuff and dump it on the floor.

Kristen: [00:37:02] And that works too. Right.

Kronda: [00:37:06] And then you’re like wait this is chaos but you have to take it all out and look at it before you can you know compare analyze it and decide what to keep and what not to keep and so that you know like all this great talk right. But that’s the phase that I’m in right now is like it’s always darkest before the dawn but it feels like in my business everything is dumped on the floor and I’m literally spent. You know a couple of hours this afternoon just wrangling like random notes and text files on my desktop desktop that I’ve just said I’m like oh I need to write this down I’ll pop up a note and write it down not even save the file. So I was like wait what are these. You know 30 different text files I need to put these in a in the place where they belong. And so it there right now. But I’m OK with that because if I lose every day I work on or improve some process right. So even for example I talked about delegation and I listened to work the system also has a great podcast so I listened to one of their episodes about how to be better at delegation. And instead of just sort of listening that listening to that and have it go one ear and out the other. I took the process that they talked about and I created a procedure for it like this is how I’m going to delegate tasks so then I can say OK did I talk about the specific instructions.

Kronda: [00:38:30] Did I talk about the objective that I talk about you know any limiting factors. Did I tell the person who’s assigned this task how they can contact me if they have questions. So it’s called the sole method and it’s it’s those things specific scription directives limiting factors in discussions. And so that framework means that you’re going to have probably more important stuff when you first also freeze frame and they’re going to have a better understanding of what what is trying to be achieved. And so I made a process for that and that’s what I use now. Delegating like maybe they are to contractors or whatever I think what you’re talking about is price.

Kristen: [00:39:10] It really is ugly before it’s going to be pretty. And I think that’s something that you’re going to have to if you choose to accept systems as your Savior. You have to just you know know that it’s going to be like that.

Kronda: [00:39:27] Yeah. And and the trick is to figure out what’s going to give you the quickest win so that you have some kind of motivation to continue. And I think I’m really lucky in that I actually enjoy creating systems and documenting things but those are the case for most people. So I think if you’re trying to embark on this journey then figuring out what’s going to what’s the biggest pain point and what’s the quickest when that you can get from doing this is going to be the thing that motivates you and your team to be like oh OK this actually works this actually makes things better.

Kristen: [00:40:01] Let’s do more of it. Well with that last ice I just say thank you so much. It’s been such a good conversation as usual. I mean so much so I want to ask how can people find and remark on what you think.

Kronda: [00:40:21] So you can go to KARVEL digital dot com. That’s my main business and it’s client services model where we. My goal is to help companies doubled their revenue in 12 months. And so that’s sort of the business focus and then I have a personal blog at courante that comes when I read about me and what I’m up to and I don’t know I. I’m on Twitter. Carbo digital and at kerana. You can probably just google my first name and find out anything you wanna know about me public on the Internet.

Kronda: [00:40:58] So lots lots of ways to reach out and I would also add that you should sign up for around this amazing news. I get it every Sunday it’s every Sunday morning yes. So I would definitely. I just want to say thank you and we will look forward to hearing more about what your business is doing very soon.

Kronda: [00:41:21] Thanks thanks for having me.

Kristen: [00:41:28] That’s it for today. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode. If you’d like to ask a question or suggest suggested guest e-mail me at hello. At uprightandbetter.com. Till next time. Grow better!